The Age of Remote Work: Arianna Huffington and Karen Mangia on Managing Burnout While Working From Home

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This is a podcast episode titled, The Age of Remote Work: Arianna Huffington and Karen Mangia on Managing Burnout While Working From Home. The summary for this episode is: <p>Burnout. We’ve all felt it – perhaps over the last year more than ever before. So what can we do to relax, recover, and rebound from a position of burnout?</p><p><br></p><p>Joining the podcast today are Arianna Huffington, founder and CEO of Thrive Global, and Karen Mangia, Vice President of Customer and Market Insights at Salesforce. They discuss microsteps to avoid burnout, the science behind stress, how companies can be more human-led, and what tools and technologies they’re using to help manage stress individually and across their teams.</p>

Michael Rivo: Welcome back to Blazing Trails. I'm Michael Rivo from Salesforce Studios. And today, I'm joined by my podcast partner, Rachel Levin. Welcome back to the show, Rachel.

Rachel Levin: Good to be here, Michael. I'm pretty excited about today's episode, because you got to speak to none other than Arianna Huffington. Career highlight.

Michael Rivo: Well, that was cool, no doubt, but even more exciting is that you're back from your vacation. Tell me about what you did. We haven't had a chance to talk to yet.

Rachel Levin: Yeah. Well, I mean, it was the first vacation in over a year, and that we got to leave the Bay Area and go to the beach, and it was just, yeah, mind- blowing. I mean, it was really important to take that time and be outside, and kind of do something normal. And of course, we were safe, and stayed in an Airbnb, and kept our distance, et cetera, but just that feeling of doing an activity that you've always done and enjoyed, and taking that time was so important for the mental health.

Michael Rivo: Mm- hmm(affirmative). Mm-hmm(affirmative). That's what our episode is all about today, which is well- being, mental health, and bringing that to work, and how you can make that a part of this new hybrid work world that we're going to be in. And one of the key ideas that is in the episode today is about this idea of microsteps, these little small things that you can do, 60 second kind of reset moments that you can do throughout the day that really help with this really ambiguous situation we're all in, and figuring out this new way of working.

Rachel Levin: Yeah, I think it's so important, because when you try to change behavior and kind of do it in a radical way, it's overwhelming, and a lot of times you say," You know what? These are my habits. It is what it is." But if you look at it in these kinds of tiny little bite- sized chunks, I think it does, it makes it a lot more doable. So yeah, that was really useful information for me, I can tell you.

Michael Rivo: And there's a lot of science behind this, which is behind a lot of the work that Thrive Global's doing right now. So we get some great insight into these microsteps and how we can think about using them in this new hybrid work world. So let's take a listen to my conversation with Arianna Huffington, Bestselling Author and CEO and founder of Thrive Global, and Karen Mangia, Vice- President of Customer and Market Insights at Salesforce, and Author of Working From Home: Making the New Normal Work for You. Arianna and Karen, welcome to Blazing Trails. So happy you can join us.

Karen Mangia: It's great to be here, lovely to see you Arianna, and I love your dress.

Arianna Huffington: Thank you. I love your top or dress, whatever it is, we never know these days.

Michael Rivo: Exactly.

Arianna Huffington: And Michael, you look great too.

Michael Rivo: Thank you. I appreciate that. Arianna, I love the latest book from Thrive Global, Your Time to Thrive: End Burnout, Increase Well- being, and Unlock Your Full Potential with the New Science of Microsteps. so many good takeaways, and I especially loved what you wrote about waking up in the morning, and the first thing that you did was check your cell phone, and the impact that that had on you. You I'm guilty of doing the same thing, and I bet many of our listeners are, so tell us why this was such an" aha" moment for you.

Arianna Huffington: Well, how we start our day and how we end our day are sort of pretty critical to the day we have, and 72% of people start their day by going to their phone before they're fully awake, before their feet have hit the ground. So what we recommend at Thrive, and this is kind of one of my favorite out of hundreds of microsteps for behavior change, is to take 60 seconds before you go to your phone. To be very intentional, to focus on your breath, to remember what you're grateful for, to simply get ready for the day, and as you said, Michael, be clear about what your priorities are, as opposed to what the world wants of you, which is what our phone is full of.

Michael Rivo: Absolutely. Starting the day setting your intentions, versus what others expect from you, is a big mind shift when we have so much pressure to be productive. Karen, how is remote work changing our definition of what it means to be productive and successful?

Karen Mangia: I think sometimes we get our relationship with success a little bit wrong. We have these myths and misconceptions that success is the result of being always on, and working all the time, or that success, if we just work hard enough, it will show up, or it's the result of this perfect plan. And what this pandemic has offered us all is the opportunity to pause, and to consider how we define success now. As lots of extra activities, and maybe business, busy work, and some friends, friendships maybe have kind of faded away during this period of time, I think our opportunity is just to pause and consider what does success mean to us personally and professionally now, so that we can put the routines, rituals, and boundaries in place, like Arianna was referencing, to help us access that success. And what I hear so many people sharing is they're discovering that it's not chaos that they're valuing that leads to success, it's really connection and creation, and making sure we make room for that.

Michael Rivo: Mm- hmm(affirmative). And Arianna, how do you think this is going to change? I know you've been doing so much work around both from a company level and an individual level, how to operate in the world and think about that from an empathetic point of view. How is that going to change now in a hybrid work world, where as individuals we're going to have to take so much more ownership of how we conduct our day- to- day work life?

Arianna Huffington: So the one good thing about the pandemic, and this was a period, and it's ongoing, of incredible losses, losses of loved ones, financial losses, uncertainty, anxiety, the one good thing is that as a Stanford economist who did," A crisis is a terrible thing to waste." So we have an opportunity to use this crisis as a catalyst to redefine productivity, based on all the latest science, and also to redefine, as Karen said, what success is. I wrote a whole book on that, Thrive, which was about the fact that we've reduced success down to these two metrics of money and status, and we've identified status so much with busyness, and being always on, that's kind of the badge of honor, we need to go back really to ancient wisdom that defines a good life as being about much more than that, and certainly about including our well- being, wisdom, a sense of wonder about the mystery of life, and giving back. So that for me, is a complete life, and the forced pause of the pandemic has led to many of us looking at our lives in a deeper way, and looking at what is it that we want from life? What is it that we value, and what is it that we can say no to? And a lot of it has to do also with our addiction to our devices. So some of it is work- related, and what is the hybrid world we're creating at work, some of it is personal. How do we set boundaries ourselves? Because even if you have the perfect working environment, if you get back to your own life, whether you've been working remote or not, and you end up continuing to doomscroll on social media, or binge watch Netflix all night, you're going to wake up exhausted, and get into that cycle of burnout.

Michael Rivo: Speaking of burnout, Arianna, you talk a lot about the science of microsteps and how they're a key to avoiding it. Why are you so optimistic about microsteps, and how can they help us achieve more balance?

Arianna Huffington: Well, the reason why I'm so optimistic is because we know from all the latest science that we all have this place of peace, calm, and wisdom, and strength, and resiliency in us. It's a birthright. So these microsteps help us reconnect with it. Nobody that I know lives in that place all the time, that's not the goal. Maybe there is a saying somewhere in the Himalayas, but for the rest of us, it's a question of how quickly can we course correct and get back to that place? And that's frankly, why we've built up this whole library of microsteps, hundreds of them to help us, and to make them, as we call it, too small to fail. Very small, actionable steps that lead to healthier habits. And when we know that, we give people not just the awareness of what they need to do, but ways to get there. And frankly, I left The Huffington Post to launch Thrive, because I wanted to help people go from knowing what to do, to actually doing it. Because now increasingly, we have more and more people who know that sleep is foundational for our immunity and our mental health, who know that eating too much sugar and processed foods is terrible for our health, that moving is important, et cetera, et cetera. But the question now is inaudible is," Okay, how do I do it? I know that's important. How do I do it?" So microsteps are really a way to get there, and that's why, as you heard, we are breaking it down into very small steps. Like in the morning, we don't say take 20 minutes to meditate. That may seem overwhelming. We say take 60 seconds before you go to your phone. You can build up to your 20 minutes, but if you say 20 minutes, you may do it for a week and then you stop, and it's harder to get back on the inaudible.

Michael Rivo: Right. And do you find that that 60 seconds, I mean, it's shown in the science, but tell me a little bit more about how such a short period of time can be so impactful, because it feels like it's not enough time to get to make something.

Arianna Huffington: Yeah, we have all this neuroscience that shows that it takes 60 to 90 seconds for the stress hormone, cortisol, to leave the body. So if you look at our lives, stress is unavoidable. Cumulative stress is avoidable, and that's really what we are focusing on, having this, what we call reset, 60 second resets throughout the day also, between Zooms or Teams. So our behavior change app at Thrive comes preloaded with a 60 second reset, a stretching, a gratitude reset, a breathing reset, but also with the opportunity to create your own reset. So Karen, who is a trained chef, for example, and Karen, and I'd love to see a reset from you of all the things you love to cook, which probably will bring you joy in the middle of a stressful day. Or Michael, or whatever it is that you love, it could be kids, pets, quotes, music. In 60 seconds, it can really and amazingly shift us from the sympathetic to the parasympathetic nervous system, and remind us of what we love about our life.

Michael Rivo: Mm-hmm(affirmative). And Karen, you have an idea around this five minute fix. So this is a little longer than 60 seconds, but not a lot. Tell me about the five minute fix.

Karen Mangia: When I think about the five minute fix, it's that microstep taken to another level, and I think about it as in any given moment, personally or professionally, we can pause and just assess, just ask ourselves what's working, what's not working, and what's the smallest thing we can give ourselves permission to adjust? And what I love about what Arianna said, and referencing food, for example, as a passion, I mean, I'm amazed. I love to host dinner parties, I love to prepare food for family and friends, and I can spend three days preparing an elaborate dish, or I can prepare an appetizer, for example, that has three ingredients and takes five minutes to make, and people will always prefer the simplest dish. It fascinates me. And part of it is, in those moments, and maybe we need five minutes snacks or the snack reset, and I can share some tips, but what I've noticed is 60 seconds or a five minute fix feels doable. We can all do the doable, and I like this and observe it in the context of teams and what happens at work when we say," Could we take five minutes and give it back to everyone at the end of the meeting, so we could have a break? Could we take five minutes to have someone share the 60 second reset they're doing and how it's working?" I mean, everyone can participate in 60 seconds or the five minute fix, because the barrier to entry is low, and it's easy to adjust. The inaudible is we build momentum, right? When it feels good and it's working, we've created upside, and when we feel that upside, we're motivated to keep going, and if it doesn't work as well, we all feel that it's easy to give ourselves permission to adjust something and try something new, when what we've invested is somewhere between 60 seconds for a microstep or a reset, or a five minute fix.

Michael Rivo: Mm- hmm(affirmative). And that takes us to what companies can do. I think so much of our lives are given over to work, and we're so plugged in to our companies and company culture, and how that works. Arianna, you've talked about taking this time to seize a moment to rethink productivity, which is really tied to companies. How do we think about that? What does that look like to rethink productivity, and how should companies be organizing differently around that?

Arianna Huffington: Well, we have, since really the Industrial Revolution, been living under the collective delusion that in order to be really productive, we need to be always on. It really, frankly, goes back to our becoming kind of enthralled with machine, and the goal with machine is to minimize downtime, and the same with software. And the truth is, that as we know now from all the incredible science, downtime for the human operating system is a feature, not a bug. So we need to base our redefinition of productivity on that fundamental scientific fact. We all are so data- driven, but we've got the data wrong when it comes to how to be really productive, and we know there are diminishing returns. When we're always on, we become less productive, less creative, less empathetic, and all the additional skills. I just wrote a piece about hybrid skills for a hybrid future, because the truth is that all the skills that are even more important now, about empathy, team- building, collaboration, are the first to disappear when we are running on empty, when we are depleted and exhausted. So productivity and this big way of building the new hybrid workplace has to include all the values and practices that augment our humanity, as well as our performance.

Michael Rivo: Yeah, and I see that you're building a Mental Resilience dashboard at Thrive right now, and I'm curious what that's going to look like, what's it going to measure? We're always interested in dashboards at Salesforce, so tell us a little more about that.

Arianna Huffington: Well, actually, it was Marc Benioff's idea. He and I were talking and he said," The next thing we need is a Mental Resilience dashboard," and as we are moving to make the employee experience so central to what every company is doing, the way Salesforce, of course, made the customer success experience so central, and the employee experience is going to be more and more central in terms of the bottom line and business metrics. But the C- suite doesn't have one dashboard to look at where are their people in terms of burnout, in terms of productivity, in terms of resilience. And so, we are building this dashboard to be able to give not just the HR department, but C- suites, and boards an immediate look into where their most valuable resource, their people, are at any moment, and be able to compare region with region, department with department, and take steps to improve. Quite often, there's still time. I love to think of everything in a preventive way, inaudible our Thriving Mind program on mental health that we launched at Salesforce is all based on identifying stress triggers, before they become depression and anxiety. It's obviously important when they become depression and anxiety, but the earlier, we can catch them and bring in microsteps to correct them better.

Michael Rivo: It's interesting. I wonder if we're heading, coming out of the pandemic, into a period, I think Jamie Dimon just released that letter that talked about," Hey, things are going to boom, this is going to be a boom time coming up." Are we going to see a commensurate boom in happiness, well- being? Do you think that this will sustain, or is this more of the moment now when we're thinking about it, and as things change, that it may become less of an imperative?

Arianna Huffington: Well, it's up to us, Michael. That's a very good question. We have people who often change their lives after a terrible health diagnosis, they go into remission, they make all these promises how they're going to live their lives differently, and within a few weeks or months, they're back to how they were living before. I think we need to support each other, that's why community is so key. At Thrive, a very important part of behavior change is accountability buddies, and communities of friends, family to support each other, otherwise, we can go back to everything that has not worked, everything that has led to where we were pre- pandemic, skyrocketing increases in diseases like diabetes and hypertension, and mental health crises. So we don't want to go back, we want to go forward.

Michael Rivo: Right. And Karen, you've written about the idea of teams thinking about individual ownership and outcomes, both individually and teams within organizations. How is this going to be different in a hybrid world? I think the way that teams are going to interact and the way that that's going to happen, and the way you're going to be heard is going to be really different. How should we be thinking about that?

Karen Mangia: We have a perception I think that we're holding, that when people can't physically be together in person, that we're getting a weaker signal about what people care about, or how they're doing, or what it takes to stay aligned. And I think we need some new tools, and new language, and a new mindset about how to stay aligned and to borrow a phrase from Arianna about how we can all thrive in this time. And outcomes are such a powerful way to anchor your team and the people that you work with in the expectation and in what's possible, without getting so caught up in that productivity loop that says," Success is being always on which theoretically means you're productive," and the question I would raise is, to what end? I could spend all day, like anyone listening could, attending podcasts, or responding to email messages, or tending to social media posts, or responses. Is that an outcome that my boss or my team is counting on me to deliver? Is that my greatest value? And when I think about stepping back and speaking in terms of outcomes, what can come with that is revisiting the line on ownership. When I think about bosses that I've had over time that have said things to me like," We're really trying to build a new way to listen to our customers, that's the outcome we're going for, and I trust you to own that. Come back to me in a few weeks with a plan." I feel empowered. I understand what I need to deliver, I know I can access the support if I need it and draw on people around me, but I'm clear that the outcome, my greatest value, is what I'm going to deliver relative to that outcome for the team, and for the company, and for the customers. And something that's so critical along the way that Arianna highlighted about the power of data and tools, is for us to be able to hear from our employees on a real- time basis about how they're doing, not just waiting for that employee pulse survey that might come out once a quarter or every six months.

Michael Rivo: Mm- hmm( affirmative). I think I've found in working with my team during this time, that I've had to be much more intentional and deliberate about conversations, and expectations, and clarity around that, because you feel like you're out on an island a little bit, and you're not going to get those sort of hallway conversations and the stuff that happens in an office so you just have to say," Here's exactly what I want to talk about right now," because the time is so defined. And I feel like that's been a positive overall in terms of promoting the kind of conversations you're talking about. Karen, do you think that's going to continue in terms of how managers relate to their teams?

Karen Mangia: It's all about being, I think an orchestrator of outcomes, and also a connector, right? People are at their best when they feel a sense of belonging and community, and are having the opportunity to try new things. And so, when I think about what these manager, and employee, and team touch points look like, I think they're evolving, right? This can be less about the immediate project update, right? That might be something that we can handle in a different way than in a meeting. And really, those times where we come together as a team are an opportunity to do some innovation, to check in on what's working, what's not working, maybe launch something new. And it's really just rethinking, I think how we relate to one another at our most human level and how we connect.

Michael Rivo: And Arianna, you've talked about companies needing to embed well- being as a foundation to developing these human skills inside of organizations, which is so important and something we haven't thought a lot about. I feel like how can companies start to be more human- led and think about that, where everybody in the organization is acting that way? There's a lot of information about people don't leave companies, they leave managers, they leave individual relationships. How can companies help set up each one of those relationships to be more human- led and more successful?

Arianna Huffington: Well, I think it starts with recognizing that while the pandemic has dramatically accelerated digital transformation, to the point where digital transformations are now table stakes. You can't be a thriving company without clear technology infrastructures, workflows, et cetera. What we are realizing now is that you can't also be a thriving company without foundational human values that are embedded in your culture, and that's much easier said than done. And there are a few elements that we bring to all the companies we're working with, for example, around building a culture that we call the immune system of the company. And it starts with our number one cultural value, which is compassionate directness. One of the hardest things in companies is people have a hard time being direct. They backchannel grievances and complaints, and that is the most toxic thing you can do in a company because when people inaudible complaints, and frustrations, and grievances, which are inevitable in any company, there is no opportunity to solve them. So compassionate directness is key. The combination, the connection between well- being and a culture of diversity and inclusion is also very important, because diversity and inclusion is not just about numbers, it's about a culture of belonging. And to build a culture of belonging, you have to start with people's hearts, and you cannot mandate that. And in order for people to be able to be more giving and more empathetic, they need to have renewed and recharged themselves, so they're not running on empty. So all these connections are now key, and that's why we are recognizing that the human skills are going to be the most important part of the new hybrid world we are building. The human skills have to become part of any reskilling. Whenever I read about reskilling, reskilling upskilling, and it doesn't include skills of resilience, skills of empathy, I feel that they're really missing the point. If you are just taking people IT skills or coding skills, and you don't teach them how to deal with constant unprecedented change that's here and that's continuing, how to deal with obstacles, how to deal with the uncertainty of our times, it's going to be very hard to be the most productive and the healthiest employees that you need to create a thriving culture.

Michael Rivo: Right. I mean, I think if you're thinking about skills in that way, it's taking it back to Industrial Revolution type thinking," This is how you operate this machine, and we need to produce this many widgets in this much time," that technology and automation is going to take care of a lot of that, and I think it's going to be so much about how we relate to each other and how we can help each other be successful. And I think this idea between taking it all the way down to an individual relationship between team members, or manager and a team member, and expanding that through a whole company culture, is fascinating. And is that sort of where Thrive is living right now, in trying to break it down all the way to that level, that then goes across a whole company? Is that core to the idea?

Arianna Huffington: Yes, absolutely, and I think the whole company's very important. We are working with Walmart, for example, with their 2. 2 million associates, both those who have the privilege to be able to work from home right now, but also with the majority, who are frontline workers working from stores. I think this whole well- being conversation has to be expanded to include workers in stores, workers in factories. And this is going to be also a very important element of our healthcare conversation, because we have found that with these microsteps, these better choices that we bring through the app to the store associates at Walmart, we have had medical results, like reversing diabetes. So people no longer having to take their hypertension medication, even though everything we're doing is behavioral intervention. So I think that's really what we're learning, that a lot of the diseases that are plaguing us at the moment like diabetes and hypertension, are lifestyle diseases, and being able to deal with stress and burnout is going to have a huge impact on these trajectories.

Michael Rivo: And turning that around, Karen, we were talking prior to the interview about being heard and contributing in this hybrid environment, which is going to be different and challenging. Tell us a little bit more about the idea of how to get your opinion across, and how to send that message back to management or to your colleagues in this environment.

Karen Mangia: Well, just like we've been talking about kind of the accountability partner as being key to a lifestyle change, like Arianna was sharing earlier, I think about what happens when we tap into our skill to sort of co- create and share our voice together. And sometimes it can be a little bit frightening, right? We get a little bit stuck when we think about speaking up for something that's important to us, or saying something that we feel like might be counter to the status quo. And a couple of things I think make a really big difference, first of all, is managers asking some new questions, like," Who have we not heard from yet? What might we be missing from this conversation?" Right? Inviting people to have an opportunity to speak up. I think this is also where the tools are so powerful, right? The opportunity to hear from people, not just in a live team meeting or conversation, or in a one- on- one, but tapping into some of those tools and collaborative documents, so that we're making space for everybody to have an opportunity to be heard and seen. And then I think the extension of what we've been talking about, is all about the power of choice, right? Deciding to speak up and advocate for what we need is a choice, right? Deciding what mixture of what we're going to allow with people being in the office or working from home, or what's going to happen with the lifestyle changes that we're choosing to do. Well, those are all choices, and those choices exist in this present moment. Not in the way we used to do things, or punishing ourselves for getting into the place of not being well to begin with, which happens so often, and not worrying about the future, but really working together right now to create choices and assess what's the best choice that we can make individually and collectively, that moves us toward either the outcome, perhaps we're trying to deliver as a business, or the outcome we're trying to realize as human beings, right? To live well, and work well, and be well.

Michael Rivo: Mm-hmm(affirmative). There's that moment when you feel like," Okay, I can contribute to this conversation," and maybe you're sitting in a conference room, and you will be in the future, or you're on a Zoom call, but you're just unsure, and you're feeling a little bit unsure about putting yourself out there. I love this idea of taking it in the form of a question, and asking for other's input to bring in those ideas, and I think that speaks so much to the empathy there in the active listening of being able to take your idea, put it in the form of a question, put it out there, and let others respond. That's going to move things forward, so that's a great tip. Well, thanks so much for joining us, Karen and Arianna. I hope we can do this again soon.

Arianna Huffington: Wonderful. Thank you so much. Thank you, Michael. Thank you, Karen. Great to be with you.

Michael Rivo: That was Arianna Huffington, Bestselling Author, Founder of The Huffington Post, and CEO of Thrive Global, and Karen Mangia, Vice- President of Customer and Market Insights at Salesforce. Be sure to check out the latest book from Thrive Global, Your Time to Thrive: End Burnout, Increase Well- being, and Unlock Your Full Potential with the New Science of Microsteps. So thanks for listening today. If you liked this episode, be sure to subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Michael Rivo from Salesforce Studios.

DESCRIPTION

Burnout. We’ve all felt it – perhaps over the last year more than ever before. So what can we do to relax, recover, and rebound from a position of burnout?


Joining the podcast today are Arianna Huffington, founder and CEO of Thrive Global, and Karen Mangia, Vice President of Customer and Market Insights at Salesforce. They discuss microsteps to avoid burnout, the science behind stress, how companies can be more human-led, and what tools and technologies they’re using to help manage stress individually and across their teams.