How to Cope with Relationship Challenges During COVID: A Conversation with Esther Perel

Michael Rivo: Welcome back to Blazing Trails, I'm Michael Rivo from Salesforce Studios. I'm here again with my partner in podcasting, Rachel Levin. How're you doing Rachel?

Rachel Levin: Feeling pretty good Michael. Feeling pretty good about this next conversation.

Michael Rivo: Well, who do we hear from? I'm excited to find out.

Rachel Levin: Well, we're going to her from Esther Perel. And for those of you who don't know, she is a well- respected couples' psychotherapist.

Michael Rivo: Tell me more.

Rachel Levin: Her TED Talks have received over 20 million views.

Michael Rivo: Wow.

Rachel Levin: And she's written a best- selling book entitled Mating in Captivity.

Michael Rivo: Well, we are working in captivity-

Rachel Levin: That's right.

Michael Rivo: Eating in captivity, just about everything, including mating. So, I think we can all relate to that on some level.

Rachel Levin: Yeah, definitely. But she really has some great tips in this conversation about how to cope with stress, and even reduce our current levels of stress. So listeners, I think everybody should get comfy on their couch, have a nice blanket and get ready to have a therapy session. Thanks to our Salesforce here.

Michael Rivo: Fantastic. So, we hope you enjoy the conversation today with Esther and Salesforce's Jody Kohner Executive Vice President of Global Enablement. And there's much more of this goodness. Head over to sfdc. co/ wellbeing. That's sfdc. co/ wellbeing and download our wellness playbook, created in partnership with Thrive Global and tune into some great sessions with Deepak Chopra, Megan Rapinoe, Ariana Huffington and more. So let's dive in and hear Jody Kohner in conversation with Esther Perel.

Jody Kohner: Hello, welcome, welcome to another edition of B- Well Together. This is a very special interpersonal edition where we are going to dive in deep on relationships. Which have definitely been very, very top of mind for me through all of this just maintaining them, making sure they're quality driven in a two dimensional versus a three dimensional world, trying to figure out where and who needs my support the most, managing the whole work- life relationship things. It's really pretty infinite. And so today we're very thankful and grateful that we have Esther Perel joining us, she is truly one of the most insightful people in the world, when it comes to the complexity and dynamics of relationships. Esther is a psychotherapist and an international and New York Times best selling author and speaker. Her TED Talks, have over 20 million views and she helps her therapy practice in New York city. And she also serves as a consultant for Fortune 500 companies all around the world. So, it is a great joy to have you with us here today. Esther welcome to B- Well Together.

Esther Perel: My pleasure.

Jody Kohner: I think our goal today Esther is to hear a little bit from you about discovering key relationship touchpoints, and transitions and negotiations and all those types of things, and then afterwards, we'll take some questions and answers. We have Kathy Tridel Joining us today. Catherine Bowen is off welcoming a new puppy into her life and getting some work- life balance, and we're happy you could join us today, Kathy as well. So with that, Esther, I will turn it over to you.

Esther Perel: Let's dig deep for a moment into what is going on with relationships at this moment, because it is a massive overhaul. As it is, I would say that we all come to work with an official resume, which is our CV, and an unofficial resume, which is our relationship history. It is the messages and the stories, the belief systems that were handed down to us in our family, our culture, our community, our economic and religious groups, and they shape our expectations of relationships. They also in particular will shape how we are going to cope in times of disasters, pandemics, or prolonged uncertainty as we are about to enter now. These unofficial resumes, as I like to forward them, are primarily geared toward a few major dimensions of relationship. Are they central? First of all, are relationship meant to be central? Do you rely on them? Do you turn to people for help? Do you think about others when you think about yourself? Or are you primarily raised for autonomy? Which means that you have been taught to stand on your own two feet to trust yourself more than others, to rely on yourself. This dynamic between autonomy versus interdependence is probably one of the more important than marketers of how we approach our relation in life and how we approach it, in times of acute stress, which is one of the ways we can define this moment. We are experiencing this collectively. It is a time of uncertainty, and I would even say unknown. We talk about going back, we don't know exactly to what, we don't know if we even want to go back to what was, and we certainly aren't faced with this threat that is often been for a while, invisible until it hits. And then suddenly we were at the mercy of it. We are facing two specific things around COVID. One is what does it mean to live with acute stress and prolonged uncertainty? And two, what are the new relationship challenges and opportunities that are created? Many of us have become, basically touch hungry. We tired of touching our screens, and we would love to be able to touch our loved ones, some of us and living separated from them, we are either alone or in different countries or work living with a healthcare worker whom we are trying to remain physically distance from, we as parents that we cannot go visit. We have sick loved ones who we can't go and comfort, there are enormous acute stresses from being too far apart and for others for being too close together because we're seeing the living four people in a tiny flat, without the possibility of going out. It's almost a joke to say that we are working from home, I think it is probably much more accurate to say that we are working with home and working with home, means that we are at the same time at the same place like me here at this table, it is my kitchen table, I am a mother here, I am a CEO, I am a psychotherapist, I am a podcast host for where should we begin? And how is work? Which many of you may know? I supervise my colleagues because I have a group of therapists that I oversee on a weekly basis, I basically eat at this very same table, morning, noon, and evening. I am a wife to my husband who is here.

Jody Kohner: Oh my God. You're stressing me out.

Esther Perel: I'm not unusual at all. All of us expect all our rules on one spot in the same outfit, without any boundaries, any demarkation and anything that separates things, which has the result of making us exhausted at the end of the day, everyone wants to know why am I so tired, because usually we live life in context, we live life in localized situations. You go to work, you go to the gym, you go to play your games, you go to visit your friends, you go to the theater, you change for them, you have rituals that highlight these demarcations, you have routines, you leave, you have time in between, you demarcate the space and you demarcate the time. Right now, it's one big bleeding wash. That is what is called working from home or with home. By the way, for many of us boundary left is the mute button. That's where the new book was inaudible there's a whole life here behind people's. There are two very important ways that we organize in times like this. What do I mean by times like this, it's a time that began with a massive disruption. It's disruption in your work life, disruption in your home life, disruption in your relationships, in your routines, disruption in the world that you knew, in the way that you thought your plans were going to manifest, which is the real experience of grief and loss in this moment, and faced with this disruption, some of us change everything. And some of us anchor for what is called the principle of continuity. I'm going to maintain my routines, my habits, my relationships, my weekly appointments, as best I can, because if I maintain my role, I maintain my sense of identity. That's why work has become such an important part for so many of us too, because work has become a part of our identity. Isn't just something we do, it's who we are. And for others, the disruption means it doesn't matter what time the kids go to sleep, and so if we don't do the four hours, we just do two hours, and it doesn't matter what I look like, and because nothing is usual anymore. And I give into the disruption, and the disruption becomes the organizer of our life or my life at this moment. That's the dynamic between continuity and disruption in relationship is essential, and then with that, you will see that your families, your relationships, your teams organizing two specific ways. One is, what is the effect? What are the feelings that people can talk about? How much do people identify the feelings, the sadness, the loss with the morning, the despair, the helplessness, but also the solidarity, the courage and the hope? If we name the feelings, we actually build resistance to stress. This is the most important thing to reduce stress is to identify and articulate the feelings. But, what is the culture? Are we allowed to identify the feelings? And two, how does the system, the relationship, the company organize around roles and structure. Who's in charge? Who does what, when? Who relies on whom? So it's the structure and the effect, the feelings and the rules. These are probably the two most important organizing principles at this moment when it comes to relationship systems. And I think one of the things that we know in disaster, and you're going to understand this very much, is that they always operate as relationship accelerators. And what that means is this. This is a scary time. Life is short. Who knows what's going to happen? Therefore, I'm going to start to focus on the essence, on my priorities, on what I really want to do, on what this company is really about, on what matters to me in my relationships and in my narrative, et cetera, et cetera. And that's one of the reasons when people say life is short, what am I waiting for? Therefore, let's have a baby, let's be together, let's get married, or life is short, I've waited long enough, what am I waiting for? And out of here, as soon as the door opens. And we've always talked about more divorces, more babies in the aftermath of disaster, this is really one of those reasons. It is the presence of the feeling of the shortness of life and the acute precariousness of life in a way that makes us jump for the decisions. That's one thing, the relationship accelerator. And then, under stress, you will notice some of us have become highly logical, we are the structuralists we read, we gathered the data, the facts, and we organized our house. We were the first ones to buy the toilet paper. We were very, very clear. And then, others really want to talk about what we experience, our feelings. And what often happens is that you having a relationship, one of each, or even on a team, you have one of each. You have the logical ones who don't really want to belabor the feelings and keep to the target, keep to the calendar. And then you have the other people who have a real need to first talk about what's going on with them. Inside the couple, one of the most useful stress reducing conversations is where one person gets to actually talk about what they're going through, and the other person just listens, just listens. That is very much the essence. It's not about solving the problem. Many of the things that we are currently confronting, can't really be solved on an existential level. Or we are solving them for the short term. Being listened to, gives us a feeling that we are not alone, which is probably one of the most calming things we can experience. So on our team, for example, we start our weekly meetings at this moment, and we ask, how is everybody? Where are you? Is everybody's family fine? We do a touch point, not on what have you done on the project, but we start with, where are you at personally? You matter to us, what you're going through matters to us. It's short, it's a few minutes. Does anybody have anything that's important for us to know about what's changed in your life in the last week? That's an important stress reduction question. What are some of the things that you have done this week that perks you up? That's a stress reducing question. What are some of the things you have done for self care? And what are some of the things that you've done for others that have meant something important for you? Because with purpose, when we do for others, we reduce fear and helplessness. We feel empowered and we feel less stressed. It's all a chain in that direction. Part of our work, in our little cerebral global media company is about anchoring the experience of the people. And then entering into their structure, role logic, the things that need to be done. We know from disaster studies, that the most important mental health support in a situation like this, is basically mass mutual reliance. There are a lot of things that nobody has an answer for at this point. Even those who pretend to have an answer, but what we need is the conversation with others, where we can hold space for the ambivalence, for the uncertainty, for the tough questions about what it means to be a leader at this moment, what is our responsibility to others? How much do I really need to enter into the private lives of other people? Which the fact that we are doing once the screen is on at this moment, we are in people's kitchens, bedrooms, basements, closets. We have never been more intimate with the people that we work with. And for many of us that we live with. I think that one of the other important stress reducers, is the tempering of our expectations. Anybody who rent home and told that they were going to be massively productive now, because it's about doing all those projects that we didn't have a chance to do, is going to be often tortured and frustrated and often shamed as well that they didn't get to do what they weren't meant to do. We've gone in phases. We had the warning period where people were busy organizing the physicality of their places. Then we had the planning that people moved, people went home, they understood that it's not going to be two weeks, it's going to be longer. It's been two months for many of us. Then we went into the grief phase, which was really acknowledging the massive amounts of loss, the weddings that won't place, the trips that won't happen, the schools that will not resume, et cetera, et cetera. Those losses, it's not just a physical debt. And now we have entered the stale phase. How long of this? I can't move anymore and I'm sitting here and becoming just so immobilized. And that same lack of energy is also often entering our relationships. We have to become more intentional and more real full to stay connected, to make separations between work and home, to clear the table, to actually get dressed for the evening dinner, to pretend we're going on a date, to create a different atmosphere in the house to have family time, work time, to create routines, rituals, and boundaries. Those are probably the three most important energizers at this moment in our relationships routines, the things I do every morning together, and for myself. Together doesn't mean just with people who are in the room with me, but it's also for people that I am in touch with, those that I'm calling on a daily basis or a weekly basis. The rituals, the times that are special, that are separate from the weekday. So that the weekend than the week day are not the same, the evening in the morning are not the same. And the boundaries, the places where I find autonomy, the music headphones I put on the walks, I take alone, the conversations I have by myself, the moments that are quiet, where I can find space, even in a tight route. Our kids know to do something that is extremely important for us to be able to do too. They can, within a moment, turn around and suddenly see themselves be the captain of the ship. And they will understand that freedom in confinement comes to their imagination through play. They instantly are in another world. And we too must engage the freedom of the mind that is not physically trapped at this moment in order to be creative, innovative, and imaginative beyond the borders that are closing yourself in the physical sense. I think that gives us some of the... Yeah, that's what I want to talk about-

Jody Kohner: I love that, I love that. And I really appreciate you going through those phases, as you were talking about that, that was really resonating with me and where we've landed, and this feeling now of staleness of the monotony, and also I think the importance of boundaries that really resonated with me, because I think that what I am seeing now is burnout. I'm seeing people that came at it with a great attitude, they got through their shock, they figured out how to homeschool, they figured out all their zooming and their backgrounds, and they got a high from being really productive for a while, and now they're tired. And they're tired and they don't know when the end is in sight. I would love to talk a little bit about those boundaries, because I feel people could probably use some advice on how to know when you're shutting the work relationships down, and almost the total polar opposite in your relationships at home, having space is a good thing sometimes, and having a little distance and you can't get that. And those two things seem to be battling. The relation ships at work need more and more time and have less and less boundaries. And the relationships at home, need a little breathing room and a little space. And neither of which seem to be easily managed.

Esther Perel: I would say that one of the most important balance in every relationship in every system for that matter, is separateness and togetherness. How people manage that. What is together and what is apart? What is connected and what is autonomous? What is freedom, and what is dependency? What is change and what is tradition? What is stability? What is adventure? Whichever way we want and need. In this moment, it's important to be able to say at home," I need some time for myself." In a way that doesn't feel like I'm saying I'm rejecting you, I don't like you, I don't want to be with you. People need to understand that with everybody here has to resource and to suit themselves. Some of us tend to resource by going off on our own. And some of us resource by connecting to others. There is no right and wrong here. But in a relationship, it's important to identify them as different and valid, rather than one better than the other, or one is a rejection of the other. That's number one. Number two, very important in this moment is to amp the positive. A positive is a boundary to, negative is a boundary positives of boundary. If I actually begin to really pay attention to the good things around me, that is a different set of perceptions. Different eyes. And I'm not just saying, thanks for making the coffee, I'm actually saying, thanks for being so thoughtful. And making a comment who you are, not just about what you did.

Jody Kohner: Not just about what you did. Because I do think that definitely lends to that age old polarization of the optimist and the pessimist, and I think that we're seeing that a little bit more in our relationships too, there are people who are looking at the same. My family's never been stronger. I've never been closer. I feel so attached to my kids. I don't know how I'm going to let them go back to school. And then there's other people that are like," this is the worst thing ever, I can't get out of bed, I don't want to talk to you, I don't want to see anything, and we're never getting out of this." And those dynamics are becoming really intense in some situations. And how does the optimist stay an optimist, and how do you allow the pessimist to be pessimistic?

Esther Perel: Two ways. The first thing is by definition, a time like this is going to highlight the cracks in every relationship, and it's going to highlight the lights that shines through the cracks in every relationship. But, I think that the stress reducing conversations that I was talking about, where for example, maybe the pessimist and I'm talking to you about how I'm really scared. And I haven't seen my parents in two months. And my dad has asthma and my sister, God knows. And I'm really carrying the weight of my family and my job I'm not sure if ever going to have a job, et cetera, et cetera. And I just need to be able to talk to you and you just need to be able to say to me," that must be really tough. You really are struggling. You haven't slept a good night and we're here for you just talk to me." And you can put your head on the shoulder of the other person, that is making room for the pessimist without having to reason with them, without having to rationalize, without having to say to them." But you know, you have it really lucky you shouldn't be complaining and look at this, we have a house, we have a roof, we still have a job. You won't make it go away. Actually, if you give it space, it will pass through and it will move on." That is the way that the optimists and the pessimists actually make space for each other without seeing the other as an impediment or a threat to my style. Because the fact is, when we live with acute stress, like a situation like this, and it's going to go on for a while, it tends to fragment. It tends to create fragmentation. People turn on each other rather than actually focus on the thing that is creating the struggle. And the truth is nobody knows. Whoever thinks there's the right way, it works for them, but that nobody really knows-

Jody Kohner: No one really knows yeah.

Esther Perel: That's the thing we want to keep in mind.

Jody Kohner: That is great. Kathy, I want to give you a chance to jump in here. Are there any questions from chatter or are there things that are popping up for you that you'd like to ask as well?

Kathy T.: Yeah. There are a couple of things that have popped up. I'll definitely get to those, but Esther, I really appreciated this discussion on the optimist versus the pessimist. And it talked to.. You're getting through grieving peace. I saw on The New York Times. I'd love to hear a little bit more about the death of the world as we know it, in your perspective, is this going to change relationships going forward? Or are we going to go back to the way it was?

Esther Perel: No. We're not going back. We know that we have at least a year where we're going to be living socially distance. Or physically distant and hope to be socially connected. There are two things at this moment that we are deprived of in a massive way that are essential to trust, to connection and to mental health. One is eye contact. I think I'm looking at you, but I know I don't. [ inaudible 00:24:20], I'm going to be looking down, I'm going to be looking up because I'm looking for your gaze and I can't find it. And it's through the eyes that a trust really gets established. That is a real issue. Second of all, I'm tired of holding my laptop the whole day. I don't want to touch screens, I want to touch people. So I'm here with my partner, but I haven't seen my children in two months and I am dying to touch my children, but my children are living differently from me and this moment slowly, they coming out of their confinement. They are not in a risk group. And so we're going to start to have all these questions about who have you seen and where have you been at? Therefore, can you come closer? People are going to be touched hungry. And we can live without sex, but we can't live without touch. We become angry, irritable, and depressed when we are not touched. So those are two longstanding things that are going to do something to us that I cannot yet predict to you in advance. But I do know where we come from, and therefore I know what it's going to mean when we don't have it.

Kathy T.: Great, thank you. We've had another question on creativity. So some people are finding that their creativity is tampered down, and I think that went to your discussion about all these projects we thought we were going to get done. All this creativity we thought we'd unleash. How do you recommend getting to that? And in this time of perhaps anxiety and depression, that's holding it down.

Esther Perel: It is a fascinating thing to know that the human spirit is capable in times of massive restrictions to come up with the most imaginative solution. So, it's not the factor that we become still versus creative. But it is true that a little bit of anxiety can generate a lot of energy and search. We need that anxiety also to be vigilant. But too much anxiety, and we shut down and we'd go into panic mode and we cannot be creative. I sincerely think that watching children is one of the ways that we can see how you remain creative. They have a capacity of lifting themselves out of reality, all of the confines of the limitations of the moment, and enter a space of imagination in which it is limitless. By the way, people who have actually lived for years in solitary confinement. This is what they described. The freedom of the mind, is where you find the freedom under confinement. Anything involves other people. So for example, I think that in work situations, we have seen that we have meetings where we do survival. Where are we going? What do we need now? How do we preserve everybody? How do we pay the salaries to everyone? All of that. But then we have really created weekly, at least two creative meetings where we are talking about the future, where we are coming up with ideas. We are just brainstorming ideating, not thinking from the stress place, but thinking from the hopeful place and these meetings have become so sustaining for us. It's very interesting. I didn't know this in advance. I thought we should take the opportunity since I'm not going anywhere to think about what we want to do, but in fact, thinking open- ended in a moment that feels so restricted is creativity and that is done in groups. Some people are going to do it very much alone, they sit and they like it but the majority of us are iterative beings who like the conversation, and who jumped off each other's ideas. Where should we begin the podcast? And I interviewed, couples under lockdown to see those for whom this situation began actually appeared for connection, for regeneration and for creativity and those for whom it highlighted that there was nothing-

Kathy T.: Yeah, that accelerator. That relationship accelerator. Yeah that's really something.

Esther Perel: You see it over and over again. You see ideas that come and then you see just swimming through molasses, heaviness, where-,

Kathy T.: Yeah. Yeah. Well, this has been incredibly enlightening, and really given me a lot to think about, I really appreciate the structure that you've given to this flow of events and our relationships and the energizer tools. I wrote down a lot of those in the stress reduce there. So thank you very much-

Esther Perel: It's a pleasure.

Kathy T.: The great gift of your time, we really appreciate having you on here, and with that everyone, get out there, be happy, be safe, be well,. And we'll see you again later.

Esther Perel: And thank you and hope to stay connected with all of you at EstherPerel. com. Bye, bye.

Kathy T.: Wonderful. Perfect. Thank you. Bye, bye.

Michael Rivo: Wow. Rachel, I feel like I've just had an intense therapy session, lots to unpack here. Can you help me out?

Rachel Levin: Yeah. It really spoke to me about how she talked about naming your feelings, and the idea of helping those around you by making them feel heard. And I feel like actually that happened between you and I last week. I came to you and I was telling you that I was really feeling isolated, especially with the announcement of this latest lockdown here in California, and yeah so it was really good for me to actually articulate that to you and immediately actually I felt better.

Michael Rivo: Yeah. And when you have that honesty and communication, I think so many times you're thinking about what the other person may be thinking and anticipating that, and it could be totally wrong. And so, naming those feelings and having the courage to have those conversations is so critical, whether it's in your personal relationship, or work again, it's all these human relationships and drive so much of what we are every day. So, thank you for bringing that up, and I do think it was really helpful to have that communication.

Rachel Levin: Yeah. I think now, especially as Esther pointed out the line between your work life, your professional life, your personal life, there are no more division. So, yeah I think that having especially in your working relationships, that ability and comfort level, to be able to say," you know what, I'm struggling here." Maybe that's affecting your work. And maybe the person you're working with will have a lot more compassion and understanding about if they can understand where you're coming from.

Michael Rivo: Absolutely. And I thought what she was talking about those spaces in between, that we so took for granted, were just moving from one meeting to another, from one conference room to another driving somewhere, all of those transitions that we used to have that helped us create space and a little bit of time for ourselves in a transition time we just don't have anymore.

Rachel Levin: No.

Michael Rivo: And the impact of that, it's hard to say, and I think so different for so many different people. So being able to just think about that, and talk about that is really important.

Rachel Levin: Yeah. I liked the way she said that for many of us what the boundary we have left is the mute button. So I think that's true. But anyway, it was great to be able to share this talk with our listeners.

Michael Rivo: Okay, Well, lots to digest, Rachel, thanks for joining us today.

Rachel Levin: Great to be here Michael.

Michael Rivo: I'm Michael Rebo from Salesforce Studios. Thanks everybody for tuning in.