Reflections on Pandemic Life: A Conversation with Yo-Yo Ma

Michael Rivo: Welcome back to Blazing Trails, I'm Michael Rivo from Salesforce Studios. Today I'm joined by my podcast partner, Rachel Levin. Welcome back to the show, Rachel.

Rachel Levin: Good to be here, Michael. You're sounding a little froggy right now. How you feeling?

Michael Rivo: My goodness. I've been holed up here at home, away from all germs, and then my little one went back to preschool and brought home a little something.

Rachel Levin: The Petri dish.

Michael Rivo: The Petri dish. Yeah, so everybody, hope you enjoy the scratchy voice that I have today. Well, today we are featuring a conversation with Leah McGowen- Hare, who hosts are Leading Through Change program, and Yo- Yo Ma. It's a great, great episode that ran on our Leading Through Change program about a week ago. Rachel, is that...

Rachel Levin: Yeah. Yeah, I really like this episode because it's such a departure from what we've been doing lately and Yo- Yo Ma gives us a lot of food for thought about how he grew during this time and really looked inward. And I thought he had some really interesting things to say about mindfulness and music and sound. I don't know if our listeners know this, but Michael, you're a musician. So what did you get out of this?

Michael Rivo: Well, you're using that term a little loosely, I think.

Rachel Levin: Well, I'm not saying you're Yo- Yo Ma. You played at the Sweetwater, right?

Michael Rivo: I enjoy trying to play a little music. I remember back in March of 2020 at the beginning of the pandemic, we ran an episode called It's More Than A Concert with Yo- Yo Ma. Rachel, do you remember that one?

Rachel Levin: Yeah, I do. I mean, I remember actually, when I was coming for my job interview with you and I listened to that episode in prep and when we were in the interview, I said," Hey, that was great. I loved hearing from him during this time."

Michael Rivo: That was a replay from the Salesforce Connections event that was in Chicago in 2019 and our timing is good because Connections is actually coming around again. It's on June 2nd this year. Registration is open, so go check out the details and learn all about how our Customer 360 helps deliver the best experiences, right now at salesforce. com/ connections. It was just a wonderful moment. I remember being there, in Chicago, in the room, it was Soledad O'Brien and Yo- Yo Ma sitting in a room with several thousand people and we have not been in a situation like that in a while. And it was so powerful, the conversation they were having, and then when he performed and he was playing pieces and then they were talking and it was so fantastic. And I remember, with all the news of having to be at home and everything that was happening with the pandemic, that I thought about that moment as a wonderful respite from all this and that's how we decided to put that episode out. And now it's a bookend. Here we are, again, we're coming out of this pandemic time and Yo- Yo shared such great insight about how to use this time to think about healing and where we want to be in this moment we've had to reflect.

Rachel Levin: Yeah, I think it's important to hear these voices and yeah, his message is pretty hopeful and it's always nice to hear from someone who has such a soulful take on life, right?

Michael Rivo: Mm-hmm(affirmative). Mm- hmm( affirmative). So it's a really special time to get to connect again with Yo- Yo Ma. So without further ado, let's get to the conversation with Salesforce's Leah McGowen- Hare and Yo- Yo Ma.

Leah McGowen-Hare: Hello. I am so honored to have with us today... Well, with me, I dare call my dear friend, Mr. Yo- Yo Ma. Thank you so much for being here.

Yo-Yo Ma: Well it's so great to see you, Leah, and I hope your cello playing child is doing well. I know they're going back to school, which is great, and it's so nice to be with the Salesforce team.

Leah McGowen-Hare: Absolutely. I mean, last time we spoke, you were on Leading Through Change, it was in August 2020, deep in the middle of the pandemic, almost like a year ago. How are you feeling now?

Yo-Yo Ma: You know, it's funny. Can you feel really good and bad at the same time? I think this is one of those multitask thinking moments, where there's a little bit of hope and there's a fair amount of worry, and we're thinking about some disasters averted, but also really thinking into the future," I want to know where the hope is." Whether it's systemic change for hope or it's different habits or personal habits or institutional habits, I'm thinking," What have we learned?" So there's the beginning of that, whereas before it was just like," Let's get through the day and let's get through a house full of children. And how are we going to take care of them and make sure that nobody does something completely disastrous," and being quite forgiving during all those moments. But then, is there going to be a new norm? And my big question has to do with a term that I know, I'm sure many people know, but I learned only fairly recently, it's a term in evolutionary biology called punctuated equilibrium. And it's just-

Leah McGowen-Hare: Wait, say that word again. That's a big word.

Yo-Yo Ma: It sounds like a very complicated thing, it's actually very simple, because it basically talks about how usually change happens incrementally. But occasionally, there's big change that happens really quickly before things settle down to, again, a new norm with incremental change. So my question is, are we going through one of those phases in our evolution as a society, as human beings, as individuals. That's a question that remains to be seen, but I'm thinking about what is it that... How do we react to big change, fast change, we can't change incrementally, but what do we depend on during those moments? I know that you have relied on your family because family, you know exactly what needs to happen from day- to- day. I know that we can rely on values to try and stick to the truth, and make sure that every relationship you have is a trusting one, because we can't afford to have any relationship where trust is in doubt. And to be generous in the sense that whoever needs help, we're there to serve. What do you need? And that's sort of first response, right? Would you say that's true in your life?

Leah McGowen-Hare: I would absolutely agree. I mean, I think if anything, this last year has made you really filter through and prioritize what really matters. Where have you been spending your time? Because you were very still, because we literally could not go anywhere, so you had to do a lot of reflection on what is important to you and asking those things for yourself. What relationships honor trust and honesty? Which ones are serving you and which ones are you serving? There was a lot of inventory taking over the last year. Did you do some of that? How would you say, when you entered in 2020 and then how you came out, what's different in Yo- Yo Ma?

Yo-Yo Ma: Wow. Well, more old, more decrepit. And what did you say? Besides that, I would say that there's a fair amount of, as you said, listening to oneself, silence, and going deep within oneself. But then coming out, getting sustenance, as we talked about before, from trusted sources and giving much more of oneself because that actually gives meaning, for one thing. You feel not helpless, but that you're doing something. And if you have food on your table, that's something to be even more grateful for, but then if you have extra food, or whatever food means metaphorically, you distribute it. I think that's one thing. So systems aren't really going the way they normally go and I think going into nature has been an amazing blessing, in the sense that, you're going into something we're actually a part of, but sometimes we don't even think of it that we're part of it. So there's a term I just heard the other day that they use in Japan, it's called forest bathing. Now think about that. You go into the forest, you listen to the sound of the crackling twigs and trees and limbs and birds, and the sounds of the forest, you're bathing in the sounds and you actually get a certain kind of solace from that.

Leah McGowen-Hare: It feels like that would be. I heard of the term, moonlight bathing as well.

Yo-Yo Ma: Also beautiful.

Leah McGowen-Hare: Yes. Combined those two would be great.

Yo-Yo Ma: So let's do that. Let's go walk in the dark... But I think one of the things that I know, that when things were before the pandemic, 24/7 I'm involved with things to do with people and with society. But actually, when we were teenagers, we ask ourselves, who are we and how do we fit in the world? We all go through some version of that. And as we get more advanced in our education and profession sector, whatever, you focus more and more on the silos of precise problem solving so we could be efficient in that, because we're rewarded when we're efficient.

Leah McGowen-Hare: Right.

Yo-Yo Ma: But what I found out was, during the pandemic, what gives meaning is the furthest thing from efficiency, right? So if you make an omelet, it's not how fast you make it, it's the process of what you go through. If you're sharing a meal, if you're saying something, all of this means more. So there's a balance within my daily life that I'm thinking about, but then there's also the balance with actually acknowledging that it's not like," Okay, I need to go take a hike or I need to go run and do this," but rather, bathe in the moonlight, to bathe in silence. To actually tactically feel that we are at one with nature and we're part of it, we partake in it, and we give back to it. That's something that I feel that in all of my education rarely, rarely emphasized and yet-

Leah McGowen-Hare: Do you feel like you've been communing with nature more over this past year?

Yo-Yo Ma: Thinking a lot more about it because thinking about the health of our combined home, I think makes sense, but also, according to this wonderful friend of mine used to say," Nature has the greatest imagination of all. She guards her secrets jealously."

Leah McGowen-Hare: Wow.

Yo-Yo Ma: So it's not just communing, but in fact, we do take incredible things... Look at the way we solved the vaccine thing, that's from nature and human nature combined in that science, and a huge amount of perseverance and great thinking, and it got us very quickly, far more quickly, to a solution. Some people got to the solution, some people were not good at distribution, some people were great at distribution. So it's like systems become... They emerge as to say," Okay, well that you do well, this you didn't do as well. This, you do not so well, but this you're fabulous at doing." So that's a way of observing rather than say," Well, this is just the way it is." And so what do we learn from that? So I'm thinking about that inaudible how does it affect my sector? I'm thinking, well, if it's access, then maybe sometimes music shouldn't be always in the four walls of a room, maybe it can be outside. Makes me want to say," I want to work in our national parks as our sacred secular space where we can fall in love with that land again, where all of America can meet to get to know one another, again, without preconceived notions of one another." So here's the forest, again, or the mountain or the peak, where we can actually commune with one another and with nature to actually say," This is what's important."

Leah McGowen-Hare: Right, and how you commune is up to you, whether it's through music, through dance, but it's a holistic perspective. Now I want to jump for a moment, about music, I read in one of your interviews that people were particularly fond of Bach's Solo Suites last year. Now what music would fit the mood of the country these days?

Yo-Yo Ma: It's so funny, I spend a lot of time thinking whether there's a national soul. A soul of America. Maybe it's a metaphor, because it's such a complex country, so many people. And I came across the metaphor of, we're each a blade of grass in a very large field. So it's not melting pot, it's not salad, it's not mosaic, but it's something living and we can look at it from the ground, looking at each blade, we can look at it from a hundred feet up and you see the whole expanse. You could look at sections, you could look underneath and see what's sprouting from the ground. So I'm thinking if there is, we have this, from the many, one. This thing that we see, pluribus unum, that's part of the DNA. And how do we achieve that in such a way that we can all be hopeful?

Leah McGowen-Hare: I love the concept that we're all a blade of grass. I've heard it from, we are all sands of the ocean beach, right? We're all different pebbles, different sands, but collectively we are the entire beach. So another image of us coming together collectively, but I'm with you on, we're not a melting pot. We all have uniqueness and it should be celebrated and appreciated and together it's just beauty.

Yo-Yo Ma: Well, you know what's great, is that I think part of it is our mind is fairly... The plasticity of what we can do. It used to be people saying that," You have only so many neurons. You kill a couple thousand, you ain't never getting them back."

Leah McGowen-Hare: inaudible back.

Yo-Yo Ma: Whereas, now we know that we can actually regrow things and we can rechannel things and if you have a stroke, you can actually create new pathways. And I'm thinking that that kind of work is possible to do because that can be reformed through constructive habits.

Leah McGowen-Hare: Absolutely.

Yo-Yo Ma: Right?

Leah McGowen-Hare: Absolutely.

Yo-Yo Ma: So it's not an impossible task. The fractures we have, are not impossible. What I've learned from traveling around the world and almost all indigenous cultures talk about seven generations. So imagine that. We think what? Weekly, quarterly, yearly, seasonally, right? Few of us think decades, you know, what's your plan for the next 10 years? Well, seven generations is my grandchildren turning 80 around the year 2100, and that's only three generations. I'm not going to be around, but I'm thinking, the one thing that gives us hope is that, I think, our young population that's digital natives have a different way of... You're younger than I am, so I count you as one of the young ones. But compared to me, I'm not a digital native. I grew up thinking I had to have one job. Younger people don't think that, but they care a lot about how their whole life is put together. Whether their work life, their consuming life, where they live, how they live, their values are about the health of the planet.

Leah McGowen-Hare: Right.

Yo-Yo Ma: So where you work, better have something to do with it. And your commute, if it's too much of a commute, couples may switch off and do things," Well, now it's your turn to do that." It is a different way of thinking and I'm thinking that actually has lasting value. And I'm just wondering, whether, if we're at a punctuated equilibrium moment, whether it might make sense for people like me to actually seed and custodial responsibility for whatever you're responsible for and to try and accelerate that, and give it towards younger people sooner than later. Instead of saying," Wait your turn, look at what I had to go through." Not to repeat that, because that's not the moment to do that. Maybe 30 years ago, yes, but if we're at this change thing, we want people to actually take ownership over 50 years of work, because we got to make 50 year plans and who can make 50 year plans? Politicians can't, businesses can't really do that, but you could rely on a generation to do that.

Leah McGowen-Hare: Right, and that's them coming together collectively and having a vision longterm. So it's not this me, me, me, individual, but working collectively to create a plan that will serve a wider community than self. Speaking of serving communities and giving, you recently were vaccinated and played your cello impromptu in the waiting room. What inspired you to gift the people with your beautiful, beautiful talent?

Yo-Yo Ma: Well, I had my cello with me.

Leah McGowen-Hare: You brought your cello with you to get vaccinated? I love that.

Yo-Yo Ma: And someone asked, because I couldn't leave it in a car because it's not insured if you leave it in a locked car.

Leah McGowen-Hare: Right, right.

Yo-Yo Ma: So I had to take it in and someone asked," Well, are you going to play?" I said," Sure, why not?" My intention was not to say," Okay, I'm going to play for you guys," because that's kind of silly. But I did have it, and knowing someone might ask, someone did ask and I said," Okay, great. I'm there." Because that's what we do, right? Because that's what I can do. I can't vaccinate someone crosstalk.

Leah McGowen-Hare: You gifted those people. I'm sure they're like," Oh my gosh, not only did I get back vaccinated, but I sat in a waiting room and heard Yo- Yo Ma." You probably have changed someone's life.

Yo-Yo Ma: Listen, I know lots of friends, fellow musicians, who are doing that at all vaccines centers and inaudible. Everybody's doing everything. Most people who have something that they can offer, I think and I'm hoping, and crossing my fingers, that they're in fact doing that. And if they're not, then they probably have a good reason why they're not, but they certainly will think about it again.

Leah McGowen-Hare: Right. I mean, what's the point of having such gifts and talents if you aren't sharing it with the world.

Yo-Yo Ma: Right, that's right.

Leah McGowen-Hare: And speaking of sharing gifts and talents with the world, I hear you're going to share a few with us. Before you do, I want to ask one last question. In this moment, tell me something you are grateful for.

Yo-Yo Ma: I'm grateful for my wife. We've been married 42 years, I've known her 50 years this summer. And my gosh, we've gone through so much, and losses, and just so much. And she hasn't kicked me out yet. And that's true, it sounds like a joke, but it's really true. I think in the 42 years I've been married, this is the most time we've ever, ever spent together without coming and going. So I am grateful for that moment, for that time, which we would not have had until way, way, way back, further down the line.

Leah McGowen-Hare: Thank you for that. Now, I turn it over to you.

Yo-Yo Ma: I'd just like to read something that actually refers a little bit to what we were talking about, like forest bathing and that stuff, because I'd like to read you this Emily Dickinson poem. This poem is,"'Hope' is the thing of feathers that perches in the soul, and sings the tune without the words, and never stops at all. And sweetest in the gale is heard; and sore must be the storm that could abash the little bird that kept so many warm. I've heard it in the chillest land, and on the strangest sea; yet, never, in extremity, it asked a crumb of me."

Leah McGowen-Hare: Does it have to end? Does it have to end? Beautiful, beautiful. Just chills, chills, chills. Thank you.

Yo-Yo Ma: Well, thank you. We each have that capacity to find those spots that can give us succor, comfort, and moments that we really, really needed. Just breathing a breath can make a difference and we need it. Everybody needs it. So peace to all of you, be safe. Take care of your children, as I know you do, say hi to your son.

Leah McGowen-Hare: I will. And hugs to your grandchildren.

Yo-Yo Ma: Thank you.

Leah McGowen-Hare: Thank you.

Yo-Yo Ma: See you soon. All of you, thank you very much. Bye bye.

Michael Rivo: That was Yo- Yo Ma in conversation with Leah McGowen- Hare from our Leading Through Change series. For insights into this topic and others, head over to salesforce. com/ blog for resources to help guide you through today's changing economic and social environments. I'm Michael Rivo from Salesforce Studios, thanks for joining us today.