The Future of Hybrid Work: Ray Dalio and Karen Mangia on Reimagining How and Where We Will Work

Michael Rivo: Welcome back to Blazing Trails. I'm Michael Rivo from Salesforce Studios, and joining me today are two fantastic guests to talk about the new hybrid work environment, Karen Mangia and Ray Dalio. Karen is an internationally recognized thought leader and three- time author. Her most recent book, Working From Home: Making the New Normal Work for You, is highly relevant to our conversation today. She's a blogger, speaker, and has been featured on TEDx, Forbes, Thrive Global, among many others. Currently, she serves as Vice- President of Customer and Market Insights at Salesforce. Karen, welcome to the conversation.

Karen Mangia: Thanks so much. It's great to be here.

Michael Rivo: Also joining us today is Ray Dalio. Ray is the legendary investor and world- renowned entrepreneur. He's the founder of Bridgewater Associates, the largest hedge fund in the world, and author of the number one New York Times bestseller, and number one Amazon business book, Principles. Ray, thank you so much for joining us today.

Ray Dalio: Thank you for having me.

Michael Rivo: So today, we're going to discuss the new hybrid world of work, and what it means for all of us. Karen, your book, Working From Home, is filled with practical tips on what it's like to have a successful work life from home, and it's something I think we all still need some help with, perhaps. So tell us maybe what we've been doing wrong and some practical tips, what you'd recommend to be effective and focused when working from home.

Karen Mangia: Well, I think about it, not so much about what we're doing wrong, as discovering what we could do right, to help ourselves live and work in a sustainable way. If you watch successful athletes before they take the field of play, most of them have a great warmup ritual, right? Something that shows them and signals to their brain they're in the game, and they're getting ready to be all in. And in the world of work from home, that looks like routines, rituals, and boundaries, that help signal to our brains and to ourselves, we're getting ready to go to work, and also importantly, we're leaving it, that there's a point in time at the end of the day, where we have a ritual that allows us to leave, to power down that laptop, and truly take a transition. I mean, just like we wouldn't expect an athlete to be running full speed nonstop, or being at their high- performance best all the time, the same is true of employees, and in Work From Home, where that line between work and life has been completely erased, it's incumbent upon us to put some of those get ready and leave work rituals in place, so that we can show up at our best.

Michael Rivo: Ray, I'm curious if this has changed your work style much. Were you going to the office all the time? Has it changed? How is it different for you on a day- to- day basis?

Ray Dalio: It's different for me the same way, probably it's different for most people. I went from going to the office to not going to the office, and finding a lot of pros and cons to it, and I suspect it'll be different coming out of it, in terms of a wider range of choices, and then I think most importantly, technology. When we are now bringing in technologies to communication and to make up the gap, I think that's where the real big opportunities are, and it's also what was happening anyway, in the form of being able to allow data collection and communication, and computer- assisted decision- making. I think that that's got propelled forward, just like there was a Zoom before, there is now that big impetus that's facilitated by this.

Michael Rivo: Mm-hmm(affirmative). Mm- hmm( affirmative). And I think it's going to have such a big impact on company culture, and the way that we all work together. I know that in Principles, you talked about cultivating meaningful work and meaningful relationships, as this cornerstone of a healthy culture and one that's set up for success. How do you think that's different now, or that's going to change as we move into a much more flexible, at least from a location perspective, work environment?

Ray Dalio: Well, first of all, I think just everybody, every organization, has to be much more explicit as to what its culture is from a top down. Culture is destiny, and so it has to come down at that explicit level, and then it has to have tools, such as apps, that facilitate operating by that culture, and collecting information. And so now, it happens in a somewhat different way, I think there's just a greater imperative. For example, I've created a bunch of tools, which by the way, I'm going to make free to everybody, but there's a tool called Pulse, and Pulse just lets one look at each individual, how they're interacting, how their mood is, what their work- life balance is. Any questions, you go click, click, click, and you get that feedback, and that data gets collected. In my case, I wanted an idea of meritocracy, in which the goals are meaningful work and meaningful relationships, through radical truthfulness and radical transparency. That's my mission. You can have whatever it is, but it has to be explicit, using tools and apps to help facilitate it and to use data effectively, I think.

Michael Rivo: Mm-hmm(affirmative). Mm- hmm(affirmative). And Karen, I wonder what your take is, having worked remotely for a long time, and running the remote working group or being a part of that at Salesforce. Tools are important to collection of this data. I think the interpretation of it is really a critical topic as well. What's your take on that?

Karen Mangia: I think what Ray highlighted is so critical, because the power in the data and the power in these tools and apps is it helps us see some situations in a new way, and also ideally it helps us see some people in a new way. And what I'm discovering is as we have these conversations about how to be purposeful and make sure that whether people can be physically together or virtually together, that there's really opportunities for connection and for context. And so, often what's happening is, we have this bigger mission that we've created together, maybe formed with our employees, and we're wanting that middle layer of managers to help go lead that transformation, and connect that message to employees, at the same time that we're expecting them to do the critical activity of a pulse check that Ray just highlighted. And so, we're expecting that middle layer of our managers to perform in a different way, and so any tools that signal to us, some data that helps us know when to check in with our employees, get a bigger pulse on what's happening and what we can do about it, is helpful. I mean, I kind of think about the role of those tools as being another set of eyes and ears. When that manager or leader can't necessarily walk around the office and intercept someone in person, this plays a really important proxy, and it gives us some context cues about when to check in and how to check in, and ideally helps us solve for a little bit of that trust gap of, if I can't be seen in person, how do I make sure that people know what I care about or the outcomes that I'm delivering?

Michael Rivo: Mm- hmm( affirmative). Ray, I'm so interested, because I know you've been using these tools for a long time in running the company. How has this implemented? What have you seen as the things that work really well? What are the challenges around collecting that data, being able to interpret it, being able to communicate it? And to Karen's point about managers throughout an organization of how to have that consistent across a group of people, what have you run into there?

Ray Dalio: It lends itself to evidence- based decision- making, so that so many people have opinions in their heads, and they're not talking about what they really believe. And so, there's office politics and so on, and that's worsened by distances. So who knows what reality is, and just as you were expressing, how do you express it? So by collecting that data, including, we have a tool which is called the Dot Collector, it was shown, if anybody's interested, on a TED talk that I did on having an idea of meritocracy. But anyway, and by the way, it'll be made available for free on Zoom in a connection to Zoom. That item allows expressions and allows every day, at every minute, sort of a 360 degree feedback, and it provides that kind of data. So what I'm saying is that I think the question is first, what kind of culture do you want? I want one that is an idea of meritocracy of meaningful work, meaningful relationships through radical truthfulness and transparency. Somebody may not want that. If you want something like that, then you get fact- based, and then with that, you can work together with the data.

Michael Rivo: And it sounds like the way that it's been operating to date, will translate really well to this remote environment, because the data sits outside of all those interactions around the water cooler in the room, et cetera, and that you're still really going to get that same data and quality of data, if the meetings are remote or not.

Ray Dalio: Exactly, exactly. So I think we're in an era where we can collect whatever data people want to collect, and the computer can process it, and you can mutually agree on how to look at it. That's powerful. So that was happening before, but it's so much more essential now, I think.

Michael Rivo: Mm- hmm( affirmative). Karen, it makes me think about an idea that's in your book, around making sure that your voice is heard in a remote environment, and I think there's a whole new way that we have to have meetings and interact. And tell me a little bit about how people can think about having their voice heard in this new environment. How do you connect with management? How do you connect the other way with your employees? How should we be thinking about this?

Karen Mangia: Well, when I hear what Ray was talking about, I think this time has been an invitation to be more authentic. I mean, we took the first step when we all went to our home offices together, and there was no longer this magic filter where you get to control your environment, right? It's much more difficult to show up perfect looking and appearing from your home office where the dog might be barking, someone's coming in to get help with e- learning, the doorbell's ringing, I mean, whatever else is going on for you, and universally, that's happened at every layer and level in the organization. So, I think we've taken a first step of removing some of this veneer of being able to control the environment and appear that everything's perfect all the time, and that when we're at work, I mean, we are just fully at work. And I think taking that step further to what Ray said in thinking about culture and being conscious about feedback, is that that we want to be heard. And what shows up so frequently is that when we're seeing a gap between how we think and interactions going with an employee, or how we're progressing on a project, is really a gap in expectations. The power of the tools and the conversation starts to surface that unstated expectations will always go unmet. And so, what starts to happen is you see people showing up and saying that something isn't working for them. I mean, we see it at a macro level with one in four women leaving the workforce right now. That's a signal that with all the data we have, something still isn't working and showing up in the behavior. So I think the critical leap as we move forward, is thinking about how we take this feedback and put it to use in uncovering some of those areas that are hidden, some of the things that we missed, and solving for the context and how the expectations have shifted here. It's almost like, what's our new working agreement? I mean, I think about it as sort of who are we, back to the point of culture, then how do we operate, and ultimately, ideally, how do we grow as a result of that?

Michael Rivo: Yeah, I think that idea of a working agreement is so important, and it sounds like it's really implicit at Bridgewater, that," Here are the set of tools, and here's our mission, and this is what we're going to commit to, and if you're here, you understand what that is," and Ray, to your point, that's not always clear in every organization. Karen, I know you've been meeting with leadership teams from around the world, talking about working from home and the hybrid work model. What are the trends that you're hearing in those conversations? What are those leaders really looking for in a tangible way of what they can do right now?

Karen Mangia: The most consistent request is really a practical playbook and some design principles for really designing a successful work from anywhere organization. And Ray started the conversation, in terms of thinking about culture, and how can you be purposeful about that and revisit it? And along with that, I hear organizations revisiting their sense of purpose, revisiting who their customers are now, and then revisiting throughout the organization, lines of ownership, not just what are the outcomes we're trying to deliver, but who's going to own them? And so frequently, it's how do we turn that into a practical playbook? So if we start with culture and then we think about values, and then we think about outcomes, how do we then build the skills and the operating agreements into the organization to bring that to life? And people want to make sure that they're still keeping engaged employees, and that these new operating constructs that we're putting in place are sustainable.

Michael Rivo: Mm-hmm(affirmative). Mm- hmm( affirmative). And Ray, what do you see coming up with Bridgewater, and at large, of really getting back to the tools that you're talking about, and making the connection between that data and these human experiences, and how people really interact with each other? What are some insights that you've seen over the years as this plays out?

Ray Dalio: I should explain that we've taken these tools and then making them available to everybody, so many, many other companies are now operating with them and using them, so the perspective is much broader than just at Bridgewater. I'm at a stage in my life where I just want to pass along the stuff, and what I'm seeing is a self- discovery process, a culture in which a lot which was not said, is choices arise, and how you make those choices. Do I speak honestly to you, or not? How much can I express myself? How do you react to that? How do we objectively measure performance? All of those kinds of questions come up, and in the process of encountering those questions, become choices. Anybody can make any choices. The company can make any choice, the leadership can make any choice of whether they allow that to speak up, or whether they don't allow it to speak up, and what that does, is lead them down the path of actually defining their culture. So I'm seeing that happen a lot, and that's very good, because as you mentioned before, choices have to be made of how you will be with each other. To define a culture means not everybody is any old way with each other, and every choice that you make has pros and cons. So I'm seeing the explicitness of dealing with those questions, leading to more explicit definitions of the culture. That's why, like I wrote in the book, that my own experience was every time I would encounter something, I would write down what I encountered, it was a case, and then I would say," What would be the principles for dealing with that?" And then I would have discussions of," Should those be our principals? Do you agree with that? What's the pro and the con of that?" In our case, we even literally recorded everything that was happening real time for everybody to see." Okay, that movement down is causing more of that question, what is our standard?", and then it becomes leverageable, the whole organization becomes leverageable, because you don't have a different policy for everybody, or you inaudible choice and it becomes clearer. I'm seeing those evolutions, and that is creating a clearer definition of what the culture is in each organization.

Michael Rivo: Yeah, it's exciting, and we use a tool called the V2MOM, which comes really from Marc writing a V2MOM, which is a vision and values statement, and then a set of methods, and obstacles, and measures of what you're going to do, that goes through the whole organization. Everybody writes one in the organization, and it aligns to the corporate vision, and it's a great technique to keep a large organization all aligned.

Ray Dalio: Yeah, he told me about it. We talked about it, which is great, and he also has, to give you a further flavor, he's got Einstein. I don't know about Einstein.

Michael Rivo: I do, yes.

Ray Dalio: Einstein is also the capacity to bring in data and combine it with thinking. Okay, that's what I'm describing. When you combine the data without the algorithms that can replicate thinking, you go to a whole different level. So it's not just data, there are interactions that can be programmed, that we program, that are very much like, I don't know, Siri, in terms of that type of interaction, so that one can get great leverage by also watching these things happen. Doesn't mean you have to do everything yourself, but if you can replicate what your brain is doing," Gee, I think that employee is doing a great job," and you're clear about it, or a bad job, and you have the measures, why do you do that, and you have that process, you can create a thinking machine that is in parallel. It's like playing chess, and you can do it with your brain, but if you start to build the equations that replicate your brain, then you can have a computer chess game that is playing that game next to you, to make decisions in parallel with what you do. That's how we invest in the markets. This is where it started, all the investment in the markets, and I realized that that same replication of decision- making through algorithms, the processing of information and then converting that into actions, can be done in parallel. And so, that's why it's analogous to almost Einstein or things like that, so similar.

Michael Rivo: And this is taking it a maybe a little outside this conversation, but so this idea is applied to markets, and then it's applied to how to create a company and a company culture. Then I start thinking, all the chaos in the world of how we're trying to organize ourselves, generally around politics and everything else. Where do you see this going? I mean, these algorithms are out there, they're stacked on top of each other. How do you see us as a society being able to use this type of tool?

Ray Dalio: I think the greatest problem of mankind, that's a big statement, the greatest problem of mankind, is people who have opinions stuck in their heads that they're attached to and are not going outside their heads, and stress testing so that we get the best ones and resolve disagreements effectively. So I'm watching that happen now. We have a chaos in our society with everybody who has this opinion or that opinion, and is screaming at each other, and cannot resolve what to do. They're just screaming at each other and fighting. And so I think, first of all, understanding the art of thoughtful disagreement. How do you get past disagreement? How do you become evidence- based? What are the protocols, rather than the chaos? Yes, I think it would help a lot, because we can't resolve our disagreements now, because everybody's got these opinions stuck in their head that they're willing to fight for.

Michael Rivo: Mm- hmm(affirmative). Mm-hmm( affirmative).

Ray Dalio: It's a chaos.

Michael Rivo: It is. It's okay, we've all been living through it, and so many things have lined up to make it that way, and I think that chaos exists in our work lives too, bringing it back to our topic. Karen, what's your thought around, and this goes back to that earlier question around, how do you have your voice heard? If you're trying to... I think one of the things that's a big challenge in a big organization is how do you create impact and get buy- in, and get your projects moving, and do all that persuasion that you need to do that you used to be able to do by meetings, and so forth. It feels like there's a whole new playbook for how to do that. How do you approach that?

Karen Mangia: Success begins with your story, and when I'm thinking about this conversation that we're having, one of the critical links when we were talking about the way that Salesforce approaches setting of vision and values, and also Ray's approach with the tools and data, is that a couple of things happen that are really important. First of all, transparency, right? Everyone's being offered the same tools, and within Salesforce, of course, every person can see each other's plans for the year, and there's a basis for connection there, but also for co- creation. And I think that's one of the really powerful tools to see and be seen, or show up and make an impact, and have your voice be heard right now, which is we are in a time where we've all highlighted here, a number of shifts in how we work. And when you think about creating meaningful ideas for the future, when you're thinking about, even at the individual employee level outcomes you can deliver, skills that you have to offer, this is the time to share them, and the beauty of that is looking in the direction of outcomes that you can create with others. You can be that connecting point, but it starts with, what do you value? What are your values? What do you have to offer that can produce these outcomes that we're now expecting in the organization, and how could you deliver those outcomes with some other people? I mean, every manager that I know of, at least right now, would love to have someone in their team show up and say," I've really been thinking about this challenge we've been trying to solve with feedback, or connection, or a customer problem. You may not know this, I have a hidden skill or talent that I haven't had a chance to put to use before. Here's what I see as possible, and here's who I think could join me. How does that sound to you?" And it's remarkable what happens in terms of response, because everybody's looking for new ideas right now, everybody can contribute.

Michael Rivo: Yeah, and I think in the context of radical transparency too, it becomes hopefully less fearful to put out an idea. As you have more honest conversation happening, I think that's always a challenge, which is," I really need to have this all the way thought through, and maybe somebody else is doing this," and a lot of different things that will come into your head, but I love that idea of being encouraged to just," Hey, put it out there." And I think the collaboration now with the collaboration tools that we all have access to, for me, at least, I'd spin just today, we were able to spin up a very impactful thing quite quickly using all these tools. So I think there's a ton of opportunity there.

Karen Mangia: Well, and I think the easiest starting place is to do what I call unfinish your slides. I mean, I think we've been taught in so many ways that a great employee or a great sales leader is someone who shows up with great slides, and usually it's the outcome or the needs, and how your solution will address these, then you detail it, and you have these next steps, when what you're really trying to say is," Just say yes, and/ or sign the contract." And I think right now, just that co- creation and engagement opportunity, it looks like exactly the opposite, which is as opposed to showing up with all the perfect seeming answers, show up with great questions. And to tie back to what Ray was saying, I mean, programming great questions into things like AI, is how we get to finding more possible paths and understanding when we look at that data, what else could this mean?

Michael Rivo: Okay, wonderful, and thanks so much for your time, Ray and Karen, that was a great conversation. And thanks to our listeners for tuning in. Once again, that was Ray Dalio, speaking with Salesforce' Karen Mangia. For insights into this topic and others, head over to salesforce. com/ blog for resources to help guide you through today's changing economic and social environments. I'm Michael Rivo from Salesforce Studios, thanks for listening.